Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 3

John Ankerberg Show

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Points

Kushner - God permits evil because we couldn't have good, or moral free choice, without that - - the good deed freely chosen is the best things in God sight. Could God intervene if He wanted to? Does He choose not to intervene?

Geisler-Yes God can, and Yes God does intervene from time to time - - -but He couldn't do it all the time, then what He did would be part of the natural law - - - natural law is a regular principle - - a miracle is an irregular event - - if a miracle became regular - - it would then be natural law......So, God cannot supernaturally intervene all of the time.......And He has - - He did in Moses time, Elijah's, Prophets and Jesus and He will intervene in the end in a dramatic supernatural event and will rectify these evil things we detest so much.......God cannot be tied down by the natural law of the world He created..

Ankerberg - - why doesn't God step in every time?

Geisler - if God did this, and it would avoid the laws of nature - - - it would also avoid all moral responsibility - - so God could not do it all the time or it would thwart the moral purposes He had for the universe....

Geisler - Madeleine Murray O'Hare says "there is no God - - if if there was - why doesn't he intervene and get rid of all evil "-- well one of the ways He could do this is to stuff her mouth with cotton - - -but if He did, it would violate her dignity and freedom - - God cannot step in every time there is evil because that would destroy all freedom...

Ankerberg - is freedom worth it, then?

Kushner - Yes - that's what makes us human - - - when we exercise our freedom of choice....Go back to Genesis 3 - - Eve saw that the fruit looked good, tasted good - she becomes animalistic - -

Geisler - its a little more than this animal state - - because the tempter said to her - - "you will be a God" and "you shall know good from evil" - - -and my dog doesn't have this ability to be a God or have knowledge of good and evil - - - - - the dog doesn't have a moral compass....Its more - - its going from a state of innocence to a state of guilt....from a state of sin, and the consequences of sin - - meaning sorrow, death and the creation being subject to sin - - - and that's why we have suffering today - - that's because God put a representative of the human race here - - and he said don't abuse your gift of freedom - - and he did - - and we are suffering the consequences - and God in His love sent a redeemer for the human race to be redeemed from it....

Kushner - If Adam and Eve didn't sin - - you think they would be innocent people in the presence of God - - and I think they would be animals - - with nothing to worry about but filling our bellies and having sex - - - -the whole capacity for morality - - all of this seems from the fact that we transcended the animal life and entered a problematic life of humanity...

Geisler - if man was only an animal before the Fall, he would not have been held morally responsible for his sin......he could not have been made in the image and likeness of God as Genesis 1:27 says - - - he could not have been accountable for his actions - -so he was man before the fall - - - and he fell downward into sin - - -he did not fall upward into humanity .....

Ankerberg - so how can there be bad or good? - - if its just the natural evolution of man - - its just the evolutionary flow that's happening fro the evolutionary good...

Kushner - No - - evolution has God's fingerprints all over it - - -evolution has been a mixed bag - we've been able to help and hurt each other.....the greatness of the human soul is we are hurt by murder - - we have seen people misuse the freedom -

Geisler - there is a biological evolution - - - and moral evolution of man - - - I see no evidence of this moral evolution of man in Scripture - - man was made in the God's image before the Fall - - man was morally responsible for his sin - - and the tragedy of life ensued as a result of the Fall - - -

Ankerberg - each of you back up your statement......

Kushner - I can believe in God because I see ordinary people doing extraordinary things......like survive thru tragedy in their lives......If we are outraged by the death of a child, we are encouraged by how kids respond to tragedy......Even to how they respond on their deathbed - - - where did we get the capacity to do this if God isn't real? The guy knows he didn't have this capacity yesterday - - - and yet today, by tragedy - - the guy makes it thru and this comes out of him......The evidence of God is not in philosophy or Scripture but in man's ability to survive tragedy.....

Geisler - How can that be if God is limited in power??? How can these people be transformed in tragedy if God doesn't have the ability to overcome? - - - Kushner's God cannot do this............

Kushner - its not what % of power does God have - - I'm asking where does God manifest this power - - God doesn't manifest his power in stopping the tragedy - - but God uses His power in helping/strengthening us to overcome/transcend/survive the tragedy.....I cant be assured we'll come out OK in the end.....This is my faith - - I'm betting on God - - I'm not sure God has the power to right the ending - - - In the Hebrew bible - the confrontation is between God and human stubborness - the real enemy of God is not evil or satan - - - the real enemy of God is human unresponsiveness - - - God will win if man wants him to -- - there is no satan - - evil is caused by bad human beings - -

Kushner - every generation and with every advance -we understand the world better, the soul better and God better....the morality standards have changed - - not always progress - - scripture was spoken to an immature people - - shortly before that time they were slaves - - - so Scripture said what the people could understand - - Scripture points us to God's will - - and God's demands

Geisler - The authority for my faith is the Scriptures - - look at the Old Testament - - - David said on his deathbed - (2 Samuel 23) the Holy Spirit's word was on my tongue - - - they were God's words - - - - Zechariah 7 says the Spirit spoke thru the Prophets and God spoke to Moses hundreds of times - - - - the authoritative basis for my faith is the Bible as the Word of God - - and God cannot error - - then the Bible is the unerring Word of God - - look to that authority - - - its not human speculation - - the Bible says God is almighty, his knowledge is infinite, he created the universe, he doesn't change - - - - - this is a different concept of God - - Kushner's God is created by Kushner's reaction to something that happened in his life.....

Kushner - - its a reaction after a thorough study of the Scripture......lets not discuss the inerrancy of Scripture if so - -

Kushner - so your God supports slavery and pork chops - -

Geisler - how so?

Kushner - Exodus 21 - makes laws how to treat your slaves and Leviticus 11 on pork chops

Geisler - one of your own cleansed all meats - -

Kushner - so God changed His mind?

Geisler - No - - it's legitimate to have different rules at different times in different stages- - - when your child is a baby they eat with their hand hands - - when they get a little older they use baby utensils - - - later grown-up utensils - -

Kushner - that's my point...

Geisler - its my point - its inerrant advice at that point in their life - - - revelation is progressive - - he did have different orders for them to operate under at different times ... He changes the progressive revelation - - - some to Adam - some to Noah - - some to Abraham and some to Moses - - - we didn't make up the rules - - - we get the rules as they are provided and revealed..

Kushner - there is a divinely implanted response in us that the prohibitions like murder and adultery are permanent - - and eating leaven bread or sacrificing rams is not

Geisler - He did revoke the ceremonial laws but He did not revoke the moral law.............

Kushner - one can choose to accept the Christian filtering out the ceremonial laws...

Geisler - but if the choice was based on historical evidence - - - is it a choice?

Kushner - evidence supported by Christians only...

Geisler - there is evidence that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.....

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