Comments on Debate between Dr. Geisler vs Rabbi Kushner - Part 5

John Ankerberg Show

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Points

Program 5 is a Q&A Session from the audience: (only 1 question was asked...it took the entire time to debate the 1 question)

1st question for Rabbi Kushner - Do you believe you are innocent before God from having any bad thing happen to you?

Answer: Yes. People are subjected to fates they don't deserve. I'm not concerned with their freedom, or innocence - I'm concerned about proportionality and justice - - a child born handicapped or retarded is innocent - - a husband who is a good husband who is struck down by a drunk driver - is a good person in that he didn't deserve the things that happened to him.

Ankerberg: Jesus was innocent - and He suffered....

Geisler - Take Psalm 51 - - it says "I was born in sin" - Jeremiah 17 - man's heart is desperately wicked - Genesis 6:5 - all thoughts and hearts of men were wicked constantly - - - I think since the Fall, man is evil - - in a sense we actually deserve far worse than we get - - I can empathize with those who are affected by tragedy - but in light of a just God and rebellious human beings and in light of the OT verses on the depravity of man - - - man is basically evil and deserves more than he gets and we can be thankful to a gracious God that we don't get more tragedy..

Kushner - The nature of man would not be defined in the Psalms - - the Psalms represents humans speaking to God not the other way around - - it really talks about the weakness of man, not his depravity - - - any pastor will see that there are good people not deserving what they are getting... Walk the corridor of a hospital - - there is undeserved suffering there - - its morally unacceptable to answer the terminally ill cancer patient - your mother conceived you in sin ---- that's why..

Geisler - I quoted from the Psalms, the Torah, the Prophets, throughout the OT, and add the Book of Ecclesiastes - "there is not a just man on the earth and sins not" - - - sin and death and judgment came into humanity from sin - - but Jesus saved us from what we deserved - - man is sinful and deserves the judgment of God - - I'd call man evil......

Kushner - I don't find it in Scripture

Geisler - It's all over Scripture - -

Kushner - 4 lines out of 22 books - that is a theological doctrine?

Geisler - give me 1 line that says man is intrinsically good and not fallen....

Kushner - sin is an event but not a condition - - -man sins but doesn't become a sinner..... We all do wrong things... The Hebrew Scripture is different than Christianity - - the Hebrew Scriptures shows one can pull themselves up from their own bootstraps....

Geisler - I didn't quote Christian Scripture...Give me one verse from Jewish scripture where man is intrinsically good, and he is not Fallen

Kushner - Genesis 1

Geisler - that's b4 the Fall

Kushner - but its still the nature of man - - I don't see Genesis 3 as a fall - - the Psalms are people who are genuinely good

Geisler - the psalmist cry out against those who hate me - my enemies - - needing deliverance - if man is intrinsically good - -why do they do this?....

Kushner - - because they are the good ones...if man is supposed to have this suffering happen to them - why do they ask for deliverance?

Geisler - the question isn't whether they deserve it - the question is are they intrinsically evil as is reflected in the psalms - I see the psalmist stating their own sins - - take Psalm 19 - - David prays that he would be cleansed of his own sins - -

Kushner - you are misinterpreting Hebrew Scripture - - man is pictured as imperfect - - not as evil

Geisler - I'd love to be corrected - - if you could show me a verse that says that man is intrinsically good after Genesis 3

Kushner - Scripture tells a story - - a struggle of a people- - -who have a higher standard of morals/judgment - - the Hebrew Scriptures do not make a major pronouncement of man being sinful

Geisler - does it make a pronouncement of man being intrinsically good?

Kushner - no becasue its not a theological book - its a book about life.....

Geisler - does it tell us truth about life as God give it?.... can u give me a series of verse of truths that man is not in rebellion against God

Kushner - No - there are 22 books of a people who are weak and rebellious and sometime faithful...

Geisler - As a result of Adam's sin - - a rebellious people - with a continual life-style of sin in constant rebellion against God that needs atonement

Geisler - Leviticus says this is for the sins of people - - the atonement is for their continual sins

Kushner - that they're not perfect - - but good people - if they weren't good people why do they seek atonement...

Geisler - the fact that I'm willing to confess is is one thing - - the fact that I continually sin is different.. The OT is full of the people putting something above God

Kushner - a verse in the Book of Judges says the people were peaceful for 40 yrs - - and then the people backslid - - its good copy to focus on the negative- - just like our newspapers - - they focus on plane crashes in the paper - - - but plane crashes don't happen all the time....

Geisler - the OT tells the good and bad about the people - - it still presents man in continual rebellion against God - -

Kushner - Human beings are not bad because they aren't perfect - - that's 3000 yrs of Hebrew Scripture - - when people are hurt in life, my experience is that they suffer out of proportion to their sin.....

Geisler - the OT presents a picture of man in rebellion with God

Kushner - I see that - - but man is not hopelessly sinful

Geisler - but he is - - he cant do anything about it - - God has to provide a sacrifice for it

Kushner - that's Christianity

Geisler - no - God provided a day of Atonement, God provided the sacrificial system for the continual sin - - regardless of whether Christ fulfilled it.....Dont you see that in the OT?

Kushner - the people brought the lambs

Geisler - but were they not provided for sin?

Kushner - sometimes

Geisler - the lamb was provided for joy? It was not the lamb that was provided for joy...

Kushner - in Numbers - they were sacrificed for joy......

Geisler - and the lamb at Passover ? there were continual offerings for continual sin - - - so how can u say man is not a continual sinner?

Kushner - he's just less than perfect....

Geisler - when we fall below God's standard - - then I have sinned...

Geisler - doesn't everyone who ever lived fall below the 10 commandments at one time in their life?

Kushner - tens of millions of people have kept the 10 commandments.....

Geisler - I'd like to meet just one....

Geisler - Psalm 14 - all have sinned - -Isaiah 53 - we've all gone astray.....To say its not true that man didn't continually sin in the OT is not true......the basic thesis of Kushner's book - - is that bad things happen to good people - - I don't believe people are intrinsically good - and the OT and NT supports this.......

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